Back to Slavery (unfinished business)

Anon, "So am I to understand that slavery should be accepted as polygamy should be accepted today? After all slavery was not condemned in the bible, and just like the many men of God that had multiple wives, also had slaves. Slavery/Polygamy tradition or Truth?"

I have been told by the anonymous commenter that my previous response was not answered clearly and that I was perceived as "beating around the bush". Let me try again. Slavery and marriage are both greatly misunderstood in our society and both have often been linked as twin evils. They are, however, neither twins nor evil in themselves. It is our limited knowledge of God and His Word that is causing the consternation.

God's Word does approve of slavery and the marriage of men with additional wives and no amount of cultural observation can add to or take away from what He says. Our greatest difficulty arises when we try to impose modern western values, which are unstable at best to the unchangeable Word of God. He doesn't change, nor do His values. There are at least three distinct types of slavery referred to in the Bible, only one is desirable from the slaves position.

Under the Torah, when one is a prisoner of war he or she has been spared as a slave for life. A woman captured, may also become a wife to her captor, with full stature as a Hebrew wife. Men are slaves for life with little or no rights or protections, such is the fate of war. In the NT, under the Roman system, entire conquered nations are slaves to the emperor and individuals are slaves to particular masters. In both situations there is hope of adoption into Roman society or the possibility of somehow purchasing one's own freedom. The third type of slavery revealed in the Word is that of the bond-servant. In this arrangement one may be sold into servitude by parents or one may sell themselves for money or to settle a debt. This type of slavery is approved and regulated by God in the Torah. This slave has few rights and is the exclusive property of the master. He does have hope of redemption and or release at the sabbatical year. This type of slave is the one compared to the servants of God in the NT. This slavery is good and acceptable to God.

The prisoner of war and the roman style slavery is not condoned by God, but is recognized as a real state of affairs for the believer. It does not, however, transcend the liberty we have in Christ. That liberty is possible even though one is a slave in disagreeable circumstances.

The bond-servant slave is much like a person that signs an employment contract that is legally binding. While the analogy is not complete, it does give us a feel for acceptable slavery. One of my ancestors was an indentured servant. This was her way of paying for her passage to America in the late 1700's.

Whether or not our point of view supports what the Bible teaches, the Bible is always right and true and His Word always trumps human opinion. The same may be said for the Bible truth of marriage. Marriage according to God is always the relationship of one man and one woman. The same man may also have the same relationship, simultaneously with an additional wife and still be legitimate in each. God does not approve, promote or condone group marriage. What God says , He means and what He approves is always acceptable to Him, whether we like it or not. He will not change to meet our expectations. We should change to meet His.

Finally! (sigh)

I have been absent from the blog for a while due to the laborious task of moving. The last load was taken to a storage unit today. Now the more difficult task of finding a place for everything and then finding it again when needed begins. I hope to be responding to recent comments in a couple of days. Another entry is simmering on the back burner of my mind and I hope to serve it up piping hot soon. Thanks for your patience.

Are we slaves today?

Anon, "So am I to understand that slavery should be accepted as polgamy should be accepted today? After all slavery was not condemnd in the bible, and just like the many men of God that had multiple wives, also had slaves. Slavery/Polgamy tradition or Truth?"
June 23, 2008 8:52 PM

Thanks for the question! That is a good observation. Both polygamy and slavery were political issues in the U.S.A. during the mid 1800's. Both were linked as evils by politicians to further their careers, much like politicians do today. Slavery was primarily directed toward southern farmers and polygamy was primarily directed toward the LDS church. The civil war was the result of the tirade on slavery and the LDS repealed their position on polygamy, with statehood for Utah as the result. People benefited in both cases. However, as you point out polygamy and slavery were both practiced by Godly men in the Bible. Do we also see that both were practiced by ungodly men and heathen as well?

Both polygamy and slavery, as allowed and regulated by God were much different than what resides in the consciousness of today's western world. We tend to think of both of these cases as being against the will of the individual. That is not the case in the Biblical, blessed sense. To properly understand what The Bible says about these issues, we must think outside our little boxes of smug convenience. Keep the character of God in view as we look into this matter at a future time.

Response To Disciple

"1) It is true that there is no direct commandment to polygyny. We do, however, have the commandment to be fruitful and multiply and further, if one will read Paul's letters carefully, I think one will see that marriage is "expected of" women. (I am hesitant to say marriage is "commanded"; I wish to consider that in some more depth.)"
Disciple,
I like your observation that marriage is "expected of" women. I think that this is the correct view for the NT times when there were few, if any options for widows or single Mom's (God bless them both), but now, I feel that it is permissible to say that marriage is not obligatory, because there are more opportunities for social or financial assistance available. This helps eliminate the necessity for marriage and opens the door for marriage by desire (physical, emotional or social; all acceptable reasons). I would like to suggest a modification for your consideration as you investigate the issue. Let's say that marriage is "available for" women in the Christian setting (with some modification to our way of thinking). Let me know what you think.

Previously Deleted from PV 27:17

Finally, you have begun to demonstrate your whole of emotional and relational inadequacy.2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"Please forget every image you may have of a patriarch for a few moments and envision instead, God. See Him as the righteous, gracious, loving, patient, creative and powerful person that He is. Now place that image over the name husband/father."One should not try to cover their failures by placing the image of God over them as husband/father. Rather, it is better to strive to be able to be in the image of Christ. One should be able to mirror, not hide behind the image of Christ."Our Lord has done this Himself, He has identified Himself at various times as both husband and father to Israel and to all believers in the N.T."God never super-imposed Himself over an abusive, selfish, and corrupt patriarch to cover their sins. Rather, he made His love an example of how we should be as husbands and father. To love our wives as Christ has loved the church and gave Himself for it. Your previous blogs have called women selfish for not wanting to share their husbands. But that statement is contrary to the heart of a Christ-like husband who should be willing to love his wife to the point that he would give himself for her.Please face up to the real issue at hand. You have developed feelings for another woman, and she did not respond as you had hoped. You feel guilty for loving another. Now you are trying to justify your feelings by hiding behind the practice of polygamy of the OT.This isn't working for you. You are losing your family, your church, and you are devastating your wife.This does not sound like the kind of man who is a true patriarch, a loving husband, or an example of Christ. To DISCIPLE and Mr. X, and any others who may have sympathy for his cause - Do you know John personally? I do. I know him very well. (And I'm sure by now, he knows me.) I am witnessing first-hand the destruction he is setting forth on the church he at one time loved, I am seeing the devastation that he is bringing to his family. And I know ever-so-well his manipulative efforts demonstrated in his writings. And I will be here, John, to argue and discourage your cause.You have sinned against the Lord; and be sure your sin will find you out. Numbers 32:23. - PV 27:17

Previously Deleted from PV 27:17

PV 27:17 has left a new comment on your post "When I grow up ....": Please comment on how your wife and family feel about your endeavor to support polygamy.Please comment on how your church family is responding.Please comment on how those around you are being affected by your APPROACH and apparent EXPECTATION of unquestioned following you as patriarch.I would be interested to hear more about how this belief system is benefitting the families around you.I would like to grow up to be like Jesus. I would like to be willing to love like Him, and to be willing to make others more important than myself. I probably won't make it, but that's what I'd like.

Previously deleted from PV27:17

PV 27:17 has left a new comment on your post "Guest Post": Michael D.Probably, you will not see this comment as John will undoubtedly delete it, but I'll try anyway. The comments that have been monitored were in no way connected to his belief of polyamy. Nor were they commentd to any of his blogs directed to polygamy. Rather his approach toward his family and church as he insists on convincing other to follow his beliefs. John sent an personal email to his family and friends asking them to read and comment on his blogs. This should offer them the opportunity to respond based on their personal experience and relationship with him. We were personally invited, now monitored. Mine was one of the comments deleted, and it did in fact contain Scripture that spoke to the behavior that is exhibited in his personal relationships, which he does not talk about in his blogs. His wife is in an incredible amount of emotional pain, and he is ignoring this. His grandson wrote a comment which was also deleted, and the grandson's attempt to reach out was also ignored. Members of his church are hurt and confused.If one follows his blogs, it is evident that polygamy is not the real issue he is discussing, as his more recent posts are dealing with topics of masculinity, respect, and a patriachal systems. He is no longer defending polygamy, but some sense of self.Please let it be noted that the comments that John is finding necessary to monitor are not in opposition to polygamy, but to the approach and attitude he is presenting in his personal life. He is being questioned on the consistency of his writings and actions. To these comments and questions he refuses to respond, or post.I hope you are able to see this comment and hopefully anyone else who reads this will be able to acknowlede that there are familes being affected by this blogger in negative and permanent ways.

Previously deleted from PV 27:17

PV 27:17 has left a new comment on your post "Necessary Change": Laughable!Why not be a manly man and respond to the comments or observations of those that are most affected by your most recent interest. Perhaps you only wish to find affirmation? How manly to hide behind "Comment Moderation".See recent blog "MANLY MEN"It is being faithful to God, family, church, self and your personal calling.It is being responsible for your actions, behavior and dependents. It is about not whining or quiting.It is about facing adversity and growing closer to God.It is about believing God when no one else around you does.It is about compassion for those around you, particularly those who are weak or helpless.It is about love, for God and love for people.It is about the inner man. Inner strength, inner peace, inner confidence and contentment

Re: Necessary Changes

I have been advised by a Brother to reconsider, moderating comments. Upon reflection, I will reverse my decision. I hope we will not be subject to very personal attacks and I choose not to respond to such, if at all possible. One deleted comment, I will not post, because it is personal and from a grandson.

It is my desire that this blog may be a forum for the exchange of ideas and learning, friendly debate perhaps, without hostility and vitriol.

When I grow up ....

I have received verbal reports that some folks understand from my post "Patriarchy" that I am wanting to be treated as God or that I think I am God. While I understand that some of you may think that such ideas qualify me as certifiably insane, those are not the ideas that I mean to convey. Rather, I mean to show that relationships in the human realm are to be patterned after the Divine/human relationships. "Christian" essentially means to be like Christ and Godly means to be God like. This is my point, we are to be like God in our person, affections and relations as much as we are enabled in our level of spiritual maturity. We are never more like Him, whose Word says God is Love, than when we love freely, honestly, unconditionally and unselfishly. We are seldom less like God than when we are bitter, selfish and hateful.

I want to grow up and be like my Lord, I know I have a long, long way to go, but I am in and on the way. Who do you want to be like?

Guest Post

John and all that will read this... It saddens me that you have to monitor the comments that are being sent in. I for one would very much like to see a healthy debate on this subject as well as any Biblical subject. Iron does sharpen iron, however it is iron that sharpens iron........not thoughts or beliefs but actual facts can and will persuade people to see the truth. While I personally agree that polygany IS Biblically acceptable as covered in GOD'S word, I will also rapidly state that even though it is acceptable Biblically it is against the laws of the United States of America now GOD'S word also states that we are to be subject to the authorities that are placed over us, therefore we cannot practice polygany. I would very much like to see those that are opposed to this concept of polygany try to give a BIBLICAL reason for their stance. Go talk to your Pastors, your deacons, your elders, frankly I do not care where you get the information just give some BIBLICAL reasons for your beliefs. Paul in Acts 17 commends the believers in Berea for their willingness to check up on him by studying the SCRIPTURES. Keep in mind that this is the person that is responsible for writing somewhere around half of what we today call the New Testament !! Give me something to research that will change my mind, Don't resort to ugly character assassinations that in and of itself is a sin (slander, gossiping, tale bearers). This blog has the capability of being read by many many people, it is perfectly okay if you do not agree, but if you chose to write a comment opposing what the author has put forth then you should feel compelled to give a solid reason. Just because it is foreign to what you have always believed does not make it wrong anymore than saying we should embrace change just for the sake of change. It has been almost two thousand years since the Christian Church has begun, there are a tremendous amount of things being taught today that are completely and totally contrary to what GOD has dictated for us, yet we stubbornly continue to practice our traditions rather than what HE has instructed us to do. I apologize for being so long, but I do not apologize for anything that I have written. If anything that I have written seems to you to be incorrect then now is your chance to correct me, I hope that John will post this and I sincerely hope that any objectors will write back, but remember I need BIBLICAL reasons to change my mind as I feel I have BIBLICAL reasons for why I believe as I do. For the record I am not a Later Day Saint nor have I ever been, I do attend a BIBLE believing Baptist church. I await any and all comments.....Michael D.

Necessary Change

Unfortunately, it has become necessary for me to moderate the comments being posted to this blog. I am not wanting to stifle the exchange of ideas or discussion. However, I must not permit personal attacks or hostility.

Thanks for understanding.

Thanks

Disciple, Mr. X and Wayne, thank you for your recent comments. I appreciate your input. Jump in here anytime.

Anonymous, you're always welcome here as well, thanks for taking the time to share your views.

Ooops, Misunderstood?

I hope that I am being misunderstood by some of the readers of this blog. I would hate to think that anyone would be so naive to believe that because I support the right of people to engage in polygamy, that I am planning to do so myself. I support the right of people to jump out of airplanes, but I assure you, I have no intension of doing so myself.

Polygamy is the pivot around which something more significant to me turns. That is Patriarchy, a Biblical base for family relations that is as misunderstood as polygamy. These two fit together like a hand and glove.

My illustration about fathers learning to share moms was certainly misunderstood. No, babies do not feel jealousy immediately, but they develop it rather quickly. The little rascals display all the characteristics of a human being much sooner than our idealists would like to think. Yes, fathers do have to deal with the emotions of being left out of the mother/child bond. Some times they have to take steps to insure that mom doesn't forget who helped produce that sweet thing. Commentator, please don't get so bent out of shape, it makes me feel we have hit a nerve somewhere.

On My Soap Box

A recent comment, "In reading your blog and comments, it needs to be said that women want love and loyalty, just to them, not to more than one woman in a relationship. Think about this- in the OT and NT times, men took multiple wives. Women were property, traded and bartered, and times are different now. In a society where women have the same rights as men, would you feel comfortable having your wife love more than just you, knowing that the emotion and compassion she feels for you was shared with others? Perhaps men that are more of a "bad boy" than you? It is not fair or righteous for you to subject your wife to that kind of competition. You can analyze the roles all you want, but man, you are on the wrong track."

While I appreciate the well written comment, I must point out the overly broad and unsupported assumption about status of women in Bible times. Women were never considered a commodity for market. The law of God that regulated marriage and relationships and even property and inheritance were not restrictive toward women, but were in fact designed to protect the health, welfare and happiness of women. The world was not the cultivated place we know today. Life was hard, women were not physically strong enough to compete alone in the stringent labors that were necessary to survive and prosper. Yes, they worked hard and long, but so did the men. Both of them with out the benefit of electricity and machinery as we know it today. Technology has greatly leveled the playing field between men and women in today's world, making it possible for each gender to compete in a broader field of labors.

In regard to times being different, well, have you heard that the more things change, the more they stay the same? Yes, the world is different, but human nature has not changed one iota since the beginning of time. The majority of people that marry today, still want the same things from their marriages that we have always wanted, love, acceptance, belonging, peace, security, excitement, sex, family, identity and others. However, in our rapidly changing world, instead of improving on the quality of the marriage relationship our culture is decimating the institution. The high divorce rate, the growing number of people who decide to live together without lifelong commitment, the drug and alcohol abuse by married people all tells this blogger that as a people we are not getting it right! Because of this I look to the Bible as my guide, to tell me how the creator of marriage said it should be. If you want to succeed, read the instruction manual (never thought you'd hear a guy say that!). Bottom line, if you want a solid marriage that works, do it the Bible way. Patriarchy is the Bible way, feminism is the modern worldly way. I will define those two terms in another post.

Also, any father knows what it is like to have his wife love another as much or more than him. Isn't that baby precious, how could you and why would you want to compete? There is enough love to go around, isn't there mom. Commentor, why do you assume that love is measured in limited quantities? Do you not understand that love is an inexhaustible well, the more you give, the more you have to give. One never loses by loving. Loving diversely is commanded and blessed by God. The references are too numerable to list.

For a woman to insist on love and loyalty to her only is selfishness at its worst. In a world where fewer men qualify as good husbands, to not share that blessing with her sisters is disgraceful to the very principle of love.

Why do I feel like I've been on a soap box?

My Faves

Dear Anon,
This list is not exclusive by nature, it is inclusive of my favorite sites thus far. I am not singling out Truthbearer.org. I have read much on that site and learned much, but I am listing my favorites. I will post links to the sites and authors that I feel more compatable with. This is only reflecting my personal tastes, I can't be a clearing house for sites. Google does a much better job on that than I can. There is so much info on the web that it would be futile for a blog to try to list all the good sites. What are your favorite sites?

To Anonymous

Thank you for your comment and for being the first to respond to this fledgling effort.

Let me first confess to not being the wisest or most knowledgable Nut to be hanging on the tree. That said, let me respond to your question. By the nature of the words , replenish and dominate are relative terms. To what level must we attain to have replenished and dominated the world? Anyone who flies has looked down on vast expanses of land in the USA and wondered where are all the people and even our domesticated animals are hardly dominated, just ask any cat owner. I think these purposes are still in effect, but there are other purposes for the union of a man and woman; these will apply to monogamous and polygynist marriages equally.

1. Physical pleasure is not a result of the fall, but a part of the creation; possibly just because God likes us and to make procreation more likely. After all, after the terrible twos, there are second thoughts of having anymore children.
2. Fulfillment of the natural traits (generally speaking) of each partner is enabled in the mutual relationship. His - protecting and providing, hers - nurturing and nesting (see the post "Different"), each contributing value to the marriage.
3. Support for personal purposes, companionship.
4. The marriage relationship is designed to portray in the human theater, the relationship between God and mankind. Everything we can know about God can be learned in a healthy human family

The second part of your question is best answered by saying, Gods instructions in Genesis 1 and 2 are not specific instructions to all individuals, but a declaration of His program and human involvement. Nowhere in The Bible are men commanded to marry, with the exception of the levirate marriage. We do not live in a perfect world, some people are better off not being married.