Saturday, June 28, 2008

Polygamy and Patriarchy

I designed this chart to illustrate how the culture that God designed for His people will dictate the acceptable styles of marriage that will work in that culture. Conversely, the styles of marriage that are acceptable in our current culture will reveal whether we are operating according to His design. While you may not be aware at this time, I do support the civil right of responsible, mature adults to practice any style of marriage acceptable between God and themselves, I will limit my discussion to the styles and cultures represented on this chart.
This is how Polygamy fits into a New Look At Marriage. God designed marriage, with specific guidelines and He designed a culture, with specific structure.
Any culture that does not allow the style of marriage acceptable to God as shown by His acceptance (without rebuke) of OT saints is not the culture designed by God.
Any style of marriage that doesn't fit the culture designed by God and implemented by His OT saints is not an acceptable style of marriage to God.
Without listing a long file of references, let me conclude this way (I welcome your comments), God designed a patriarchal culture with established leadership. The only styles of marriage that fits this culture is polygamy (by choice) and monogamy (by choice). Monogamy only does not fit the culture designed by God. For our society, civil or ecclesiastical, to promote a style of marriage that is not acceptable to God shows that we have deviated from His plan. If we have deviated there, where else may we be off base?

Wednesday, June 25, 2008

Are we slaves today?

Anon, "So am I to understand that slavery should be accepted as polgamy should be accepted today? After all slavery was not condemnd in the bible, and just like the many men of God that had multiple wives, also had slaves. Slavery/Polgamy tradition or Truth?"
June 23, 2008 8:52 PM

Thanks for the question! That is a good observation. Both polygamy and slavery were political issues in the U.S.A. during the mid 1800's. Both were linked as evils by politicians to further their careers, much like politicians do today. Slavery was primarily directed toward southern farmers and polygamy was primarily directed toward the LDS church. The civil war was the result of the tirade on slavery and the LDS repealed their position on polygamy, with statehood for Utah as the result. People benefited in both cases. However, as you point out polygamy and slavery were both practiced by Godly men in the Bible. Do we also see that both were practiced by ungodly men and heathen as well?

Both polygamy and slavery, as allowed and regulated by God were much different than what resides in the consciousness of today's western world. We tend to think of both of these cases as being against the will of the individual. That is not the case in the Biblical, blessed sense. To properly understand what The Bible says about these issues, we must think outside our little boxes of smug convenience. Keep the character of God in view as we look into this matter at a future time.

Sunday, June 22, 2008

Response To Disciple

"1) It is true that there is no direct commandment to polygyny. We do, however, have the commandment to be fruitful and multiply and further, if one will read Paul's letters carefully, I think one will see that marriage is "expected of" women. (I am hesitant to say marriage is "commanded"; I wish to consider that in some more depth.)"
Disciple,
I like your observation that marriage is "expected of" women. I think that this is the correct view for the NT times when there were few, if any options for widows or single Mom's (God bless them both), but now, I feel that it is permissible to say that marriage is not obligatory, because there are more opportunities for social or financial assistance available. This helps eliminate the necessity for marriage and opens the door for marriage by desire (physical, emotional or social; all acceptable reasons). I would like to suggest a modification for your consideration as you investigate the issue. Let's say that marriage is "available for" women in the Christian setting (with some modification to our way of thinking). Let me know what you think.

Saturday, June 21, 2008

Feminism

Patriarchy and feminism receive so much opposition because both terms have been seriously perverted in modern thinking. Both are Biblical principles that have been twisted to benefit the unique personal point of view of those opposed to God and His purposes. God always has our best interests at heart, even though often, He doesn't clue us in on what's happening. His plan is for us to trust Him and see how He is working things out for His glory and our good.
As I mentioned before patriarchy [and feminism (Bible based)] is a template or pattern of God's relationship with mankind and vice versa. God's enemy and ours, Satan, has perverted these principles to further his own purposes. He began his devious plot in the garden of Eden, when he approached Eve and tempted her to listen to his authority, rather than the authority of her husband (who was placed in that position by God). She had the ability and the right to choose and experience the consequences of that choice. Please notice that Satan did not tempt Adam, but subverted God's program and skipped over the authority figure and initiated rebellion to God's template (mode of operation). Satan has been doing this very effectively since that time. Adam's failure was in listening to the voice of his wife rather than the command of God. He failed as the leader of his family.
That God placed Adam and Eve in respective positions regarding authority (I Corinthians 11), does not make either the man or the woman superior to the other. God's secondary purpose in having distinct organization is for order, efficiency, safety, mental and physical health. His primary purpose is to show us how to have a happy, productive relationship with Him. Patriarchy has been perverted in the minds of the world and therefore most Christians, to assume that this organization makes men abusive masters and women, abject slaves.
Feminism has been perverted in our world today to assume that women are not only equal to men (which they are), but superior (which they are not) and do not need men to be complete and fulfilled. Furthermore feminism today assumes that if women ruled the world, there would be no war, strife and famine. Feminism as the world portrays it, is the perversion that Satan initiated in Eden. It also eliminates God, most people are not aware of the ramifications of modern feminism carried to its ultimate conclusion.
Feminism in the Biblical sense, is altogether different. When God created the first woman, she was the ultimate of His creative work, saving the best for last and then He rested. No jokes about having her do all the work from there on out, please. Adam was formed from the dust of the ground, she was not, she was formed from Adam, man once refined. It has never been part of God's program that women be regarded as slaves or property. That a wife would be in submission to her husbands leadership is no more demeaning to her than it is for all of us to be in submission to our Lords leadership. [See the template at work?] The idea of being demeaned is the result of Satan's perversion of God's program. What God did institute is a program or organization that works extremely well when both men and women fit into their respective roles according to His design. Again, this is not respecting value, but organization and portrayal of God's plan.
All marital problems that exist today have their source in the failure of one or both parties to fulfill their role as God designed. Guys, I am afraid that we as men have the larger responsibility in the failure in marriage. We fail when we do not take the position of leadership for our families, leading them in the way that God leads us. When we lead by poll rather than Biblical policy, we repeat the failure of Adam in the garden.
As to the ability of women to be persons of great self-worth, relative independence, accomplishment, and skill, etc., I only need to refer you to many examples in Scripture; Sarah, Ruth, Deborah, Priscilla, Mary and Martha, etc., but primarily the Proverbs 31 woman. She was strong, motivated, industrious and a free thinker that operated in the structure that God created. To borrow a phrase from the U.S. Army, "Be All That You Can Be". For men and women alike that is a good goal, only we must operate within the frame work of our Lord's design.

Previously Deleted from PV 27:17

Finally, you have begun to demonstrate your whole of emotional and relational inadequacy.2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"Please forget every image you may have of a patriarch for a few moments and envision instead, God. See Him as the righteous, gracious, loving, patient, creative and powerful person that He is. Now place that image over the name husband/father."One should not try to cover their failures by placing the image of God over them as husband/father. Rather, it is better to strive to be able to be in the image of Christ. One should be able to mirror, not hide behind the image of Christ."Our Lord has done this Himself, He has identified Himself at various times as both husband and father to Israel and to all believers in the N.T."God never super-imposed Himself over an abusive, selfish, and corrupt patriarch to cover their sins. Rather, he made His love an example of how we should be as husbands and father. To love our wives as Christ has loved the church and gave Himself for it. Your previous blogs have called women selfish for not wanting to share their husbands. But that statement is contrary to the heart of a Christ-like husband who should be willing to love his wife to the point that he would give himself for her.Please face up to the real issue at hand. You have developed feelings for another woman, and she did not respond as you had hoped. You feel guilty for loving another. Now you are trying to justify your feelings by hiding behind the practice of polygamy of the OT.This isn't working for you. You are losing your family, your church, and you are devastating your wife.This does not sound like the kind of man who is a true patriarch, a loving husband, or an example of Christ. To DISCIPLE and Mr. X, and any others who may have sympathy for his cause - Do you know John personally? I do. I know him very well. (And I'm sure by now, he knows me.) I am witnessing first-hand the destruction he is setting forth on the church he at one time loved, I am seeing the devastation that he is bringing to his family. And I know ever-so-well his manipulative efforts demonstrated in his writings. And I will be here, John, to argue and discourage your cause.You have sinned against the Lord; and be sure your sin will find you out. Numbers 32:23. - PV 27:17

Previously Deleted from PV 27:17

PV 27:17 has left a new comment on your post "When I grow up ....": Please comment on how your wife and family feel about your endeavor to support polygamy.Please comment on how your church family is responding.Please comment on how those around you are being affected by your APPROACH and apparent EXPECTATION of unquestioned following you as patriarch.I would be interested to hear more about how this belief system is benefitting the families around you.I would like to grow up to be like Jesus. I would like to be willing to love like Him, and to be willing to make others more important than myself. I probably won't make it, but that's what I'd like.

Previously deleted from PV27:17

PV 27:17 has left a new comment on your post "Guest Post": Michael D.Probably, you will not see this comment as John will undoubtedly delete it, but I'll try anyway. The comments that have been monitored were in no way connected to his belief of polyamy. Nor were they commentd to any of his blogs directed to polygamy. Rather his approach toward his family and church as he insists on convincing other to follow his beliefs. John sent an personal email to his family and friends asking them to read and comment on his blogs. This should offer them the opportunity to respond based on their personal experience and relationship with him. We were personally invited, now monitored. Mine was one of the comments deleted, and it did in fact contain Scripture that spoke to the behavior that is exhibited in his personal relationships, which he does not talk about in his blogs. His wife is in an incredible amount of emotional pain, and he is ignoring this. His grandson wrote a comment which was also deleted, and the grandson's attempt to reach out was also ignored. Members of his church are hurt and confused.If one follows his blogs, it is evident that polygamy is not the real issue he is discussing, as his more recent posts are dealing with topics of masculinity, respect, and a patriachal systems. He is no longer defending polygamy, but some sense of self.Please let it be noted that the comments that John is finding necessary to monitor are not in opposition to polygamy, but to the approach and attitude he is presenting in his personal life. He is being questioned on the consistency of his writings and actions. To these comments and questions he refuses to respond, or post.I hope you are able to see this comment and hopefully anyone else who reads this will be able to acknowlede that there are familes being affected by this blogger in negative and permanent ways.

Previously deleted from PV 27:17

PV 27:17 has left a new comment on your post "Necessary Change": Laughable!Why not be a manly man and respond to the comments or observations of those that are most affected by your most recent interest. Perhaps you only wish to find affirmation? How manly to hide behind "Comment Moderation".See recent blog "MANLY MEN"It is being faithful to God, family, church, self and your personal calling.It is being responsible for your actions, behavior and dependents. It is about not whining or quiting.It is about facing adversity and growing closer to God.It is about believing God when no one else around you does.It is about compassion for those around you, particularly those who are weak or helpless.It is about love, for God and love for people.It is about the inner man. Inner strength, inner peace, inner confidence and contentment

Re: Necessary Changes

I have been advised by a Brother to reconsider, moderating comments. Upon reflection, I will reverse my decision. I hope we will not be subject to very personal attacks and I choose not to respond to such, if at all possible. One deleted comment, I will not post, because it is personal and from a grandson.

It is my desire that this blog may be a forum for the exchange of ideas and learning, friendly debate perhaps, without hostility and vitriol.

Thursday, June 19, 2008

When I grow up ....

I have received verbal reports that some folks understand from my post "Patriarchy" that I am wanting to be treated as God or that I think I am God. While I understand that some of you may think that such ideas qualify me as certifiably insane, those are not the ideas that I mean to convey. Rather, I mean to show that relationships in the human realm are to be patterned after the Divine/human relationships. "Christian" essentially means to be like Christ and Godly means to be God like. This is my point, we are to be like God in our person, affections and relations as much as we are enabled in our level of spiritual maturity. We are never more like Him, whose Word says God is Love, than when we love freely, honestly, unconditionally and unselfishly. We are seldom less like God than when we are bitter, selfish and hateful.

I want to grow up and be like my Lord, I know I have a long, long way to go, but I am in and on the way. Who do you want to be like?

Guest Post

John and all that will read this... It saddens me that you have to monitor the comments that are being sent in. I for one would very much like to see a healthy debate on this subject as well as any Biblical subject. Iron does sharpen iron, however it is iron that sharpens iron........not thoughts or beliefs but actual facts can and will persuade people to see the truth. While I personally agree that polygany IS Biblically acceptable as covered in GOD'S word, I will also rapidly state that even though it is acceptable Biblically it is against the laws of the United States of America now GOD'S word also states that we are to be subject to the authorities that are placed over us, therefore we cannot practice polygany. I would very much like to see those that are opposed to this concept of polygany try to give a BIBLICAL reason for their stance. Go talk to your Pastors, your deacons, your elders, frankly I do not care where you get the information just give some BIBLICAL reasons for your beliefs. Paul in Acts 17 commends the believers in Berea for their willingness to check up on him by studying the SCRIPTURES. Keep in mind that this is the person that is responsible for writing somewhere around half of what we today call the New Testament !! Give me something to research that will change my mind, Don't resort to ugly character assassinations that in and of itself is a sin (slander, gossiping, tale bearers). This blog has the capability of being read by many many people, it is perfectly okay if you do not agree, but if you chose to write a comment opposing what the author has put forth then you should feel compelled to give a solid reason. Just because it is foreign to what you have always believed does not make it wrong anymore than saying we should embrace change just for the sake of change. It has been almost two thousand years since the Christian Church has begun, there are a tremendous amount of things being taught today that are completely and totally contrary to what GOD has dictated for us, yet we stubbornly continue to practice our traditions rather than what HE has instructed us to do. I apologize for being so long, but I do not apologize for anything that I have written. If anything that I have written seems to you to be incorrect then now is your chance to correct me, I hope that John will post this and I sincerely hope that any objectors will write back, but remember I need BIBLICAL reasons to change my mind as I feel I have BIBLICAL reasons for why I believe as I do. For the record I am not a Later Day Saint nor have I ever been, I do attend a BIBLE believing Baptist church. I await any and all comments.....Michael D.

Tuesday, June 17, 2008

Necessary Change

Unfortunately, it has become necessary for me to moderate the comments being posted to this blog. I am not wanting to stifle the exchange of ideas or discussion. However, I must not permit personal attacks or hostility.

Thanks for understanding.

Saturday, June 14, 2008

Patriarchy

Patriarchy is a family structure originated by God for the purposes of building a well-founded, happy, productive and safe family environment, as well as a means of portraying God’s intended relationship with mankind. Everything that may be known of our relationship with God is to be demonstrated in the patriarchal family structure.
Please forget every image you may have of a patriarch for a few moments and envision instead, God. See Him as the righteous, gracious, loving, patient, creative and powerful person that He is. Now place that image over the name husband/father. Our Lord has done this Himself, He has identified Himself at various times as both husband and father to Israel and to all believers in the N.T. His standards for paternal behavior and responsibilities are patterned after His own character and behavior. The images we have of patriarchs as austere, unforgiving, demanding, cold and uncaring are not from the Bible, but from bad works of art and from several tyrannical cults. It is God's purpose that the family relationship points people to our loving, gracious Lord.
I believe this is a topic of enormous importance, yet I cannot deal with it in its entirity in one or two posts. For now let me give you an overview of marriage, family, God , people relationship.
In Ephesians 5, Paul, the servant of God writes what the Lord has given him. Here he describes the roles of men and women in the marriage relationship and in verses 32-33, he makes the parallel relationship to Christ and the church, Eph 5:32-33 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Simply put, what Christ is to the church, the husband is to be to his wife and family. How did Jesus treat His people while He was on earth and since He has ascended back to heaven? How, righteously, graciously, lovingly, patiently and mercifully.
What the church to Christ relationship is what the relationship of the wife and children to the husband should be. Hence, husbands should love with a Godly, giving, self-sacrificing, unselfish love and wives should reverence their husbands in the same way they reverence God. In this relationship, children will learn how to serve God rightly. In the family relationship, the husband wields the authority which God gave him, he must be very careful how he uses it. He will answer to God for how he treats his responsibility to his family. The wife has the responsibility to revere her husband and willingly yield to his authority and leadership. Her job is to serve him, be his cheerleader and give him the same praise, trust, respect and support that she would give to God. No man or woman is perfect and without faults, but still this principle works. I can hear it now, "you don't know my husband/wife". Right, you are! God gives us remedys for such extreme problems such as some people have. Many of us have been taught that divorce is Biblically wrong in any situation, that is not true. Separation and divorce are two remedys to extreme and unbearable marriages. These are for extremes only, the problem is that most people quit too easily. It takes work for a marriage to be a success.
When we supplant the husbands authority and leadership with the wife's authority and leadership we thwart the plan of God to display His relationship to people. I am not anti-women, I greatly enjoy the company of women, who enjoy being women and manifest a Godly spirit. Being around them and hearing their insights from their unique (to guys) vantage point is a blessing from God. It is getting late and I do not see a good stopping point, so I will create one right here (.). More later.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008

Thanks

Disciple, Mr. X and Wayne, thank you for your recent comments. I appreciate your input. Jump in here anytime.

Anonymous, you're always welcome here as well, thanks for taking the time to share your views.

Ooops, Misunderstood?

I hope that I am being misunderstood by some of the readers of this blog. I would hate to think that anyone would be so naive to believe that because I support the right of people to engage in polygamy, that I am planning to do so myself. I support the right of people to jump out of airplanes, but I assure you, I have no intension of doing so myself.

Polygamy is the pivot around which something more significant to me turns. That is Patriarchy, a Biblical base for family relations that is as misunderstood as polygamy. These two fit together like a hand and glove.

My illustration about fathers learning to share moms was certainly misunderstood. No, babies do not feel jealousy immediately, but they develop it rather quickly. The little rascals display all the characteristics of a human being much sooner than our idealists would like to think. Yes, fathers do have to deal with the emotions of being left out of the mother/child bond. Some times they have to take steps to insure that mom doesn't forget who helped produce that sweet thing. Commentator, please don't get so bent out of shape, it makes me feel we have hit a nerve somewhere.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008

On My Soap Box

A recent comment, "In reading your blog and comments, it needs to be said that women want love and loyalty, just to them, not to more than one woman in a relationship. Think about this- in the OT and NT times, men took multiple wives. Women were property, traded and bartered, and times are different now. In a society where women have the same rights as men, would you feel comfortable having your wife love more than just you, knowing that the emotion and compassion she feels for you was shared with others? Perhaps men that are more of a "bad boy" than you? It is not fair or righteous for you to subject your wife to that kind of competition. You can analyze the roles all you want, but man, you are on the wrong track."
While I appreciate the well written comment, I must point out the overly broad and unsupported assumption about status of women in Bible times. Women were never considered a commodity for market. The law of God that regulated marriage and relationships and even property and inheritance were not restrictive toward women, but were in fact designed to protect the health, welfare and happiness of women. The world was not the cultivated place we know today. Life was hard, women were not physically stong enough to compete alone in the stringent labors that were necessary to survive and prosper. Yes, they worked hard and long, but so did the men. Both of them with out the benefit of electricity and machinery as we know it today. Technology has greatly leveled the playing field between men and women in todays world, making it possible for each gender to compete in a broader field of labors.
In regard to times being different, well, have you heard that the more things change, the more they stay the same? Yes, the world is different, but human nature has not changed one iota since the beginning of time. The majority of people that marry today, still want the same things from their marriages that we have always wanted, love, acceptance, belonging, peace, security, excitement, sex, family, identity and others. However, in our rapidly changing world, instead of improving on the quality of the marriage relationship our culture is decimating the institution. The high divorce rate, the growing number of people who decide to live together without lifelong committment, the drug and alcohol abuse by married people all tells this blogger that as a people we are not getting it right! Because of this I look to the Bible as my guide, to tell me how the creator of marriage said it should be. If you want to succeed, read the instruction manual (never thought you'd hear a guy say that!). Bottom line, if you want a solid marriage that works, do it the Bible way. Patriarchy is the Bible way, feminism is the modern worldly way. I will define those two terms in another post.
Also, any father knows what it is like to have his wife love another as much or more than him. Isn't that baby precious, how could you and why would you want to compete? There is enough love to go around, isn't there mom. Commentor, why do you assume that love is measured in limited quantities? Do you not understand that love is an inexhaustable well, the more you give, the more you have to give. One never loses by loving. Loving diversely is commanded and blessed by God. The references are too numerable to list.
For a woman to insist on love and loyalty to her only is selfishness at its worst. In a world where fewer men qualify as good husbands, to not share that blessing with her sisters is disgracefull to the very principle of love.
Why do I feel like I've been on a soap box?

Monday, June 9, 2008

Manly Men

Let me describe manliness as I see it revealed in the Bible.




  1. Manliness is not perfection. Some of God's greatest men were men who made the greatest mistakes.


  2. Manliness is not equated with size or brawniness, very few of God's men are described with physical characteristics. It doesn't matter how often you shave, either. It is not about machisimo.


  3. Manliness is about heart and character.


  4. It is being faithful to God, family, church, self and your personal calling.


  5. It is being responsible for your actions, behavior and dependents. It is about not whining or quiting.


  6. It is about facing adversity and growing closer to God.


  7. It is about believing God when no one else around you does.


  8. It is about compassion for those around you, particularly those who are weak or helpless.


  9. It is about love, for God and love for people.
  10. It is about the inner man. Inner strength, inner peace, inner confidence and contentment.


  11. Manliness is a male role, but not the same as maleness. A guy may be male, but not manly, however one can not be manly without being male.

I fear that we have confused the issue between male and manly. Two places in the Bible is the phrase "quit you like men" used. First by a Philistine officer, when his troops were loosing a battle (they rallied and won). Second, when Paul told the Corinthian Christians to behave as men. The world equates Christianity with weakness. God desires and honors manly Christian men and no, its not about football or beer either.

Aren't you tired of the way the entertainment world portrays men? Let's rise up and take our world back!

Man and Manhood

When I take a new look at marriage, polygamy suddenly appears Biblical, but what I am seeing as most important and worthy of a new examination of what God intended marriage to be, is something else altogether. The role of men and women in our society has been seriously marred by centuries of Roman Catholic influence. We are equal in value before God and men, but our roles are so uniquely different, that we cannot get the desired results. This is a conflict between feminism and patriarchy. The relationship between mankind and God is described throughout the Bible, as the relationship of family to Father. God designed the earthly family to be a platform to display the benefits of our relationship to God and how we can know Him. This has been seriously corrupted by the rise of feminism.

Feminism started in the Garden of Eden, when Eve was tempted to and did listen to the voice of the serpent, instead of her husband, God's authority figure in their family. Adams initial sin was to listen to the voice of his wife instead of listening to God, his authority figure. It has been going down hill since then. Satan inspired female deities, to supplant the living God in the minds of men has been his greatest ploy. Today, we have men made to look like total, spineless, idiots in commercials, movies and sitcoms all over the place. In todays world the image of what it means to be a man has been lost to our western culture. This is one of the reasons the Bad Boys stand out in appeal to many women.

I do not blame women for this, I believe most women still want their men to be real men. The problem is that our culture has no standard apart from the Bible for manhood, and we have ignored it's teaching on the subject. There is no rite of passage for guys today. When do you become a man? How does a man behave?

More later, but for now let me say, a real man treasures the women in his life, wife, mother, sisters, daughters, friends, but is ruled by none of them. He loves and respects each, but worships none but God.

Saturday, June 7, 2008

A Discovery

I have discovered that writing my own blog is much more difficult than I first thought. That is quite a confession for a guy that has an opinion on just about anything. I find it easier to comment on someone else's blog than to initiate my own topics. Perhaps this is like high school, where I took physics and algebra at the same time. The trouble was, the math I needed for physics came 3 weeks later in algebra than when I needed it in physics. The comparison works like this, I am such a novice to internet operations and blogging in particular that I am having trouble with composing and learning formatting at the same time. This slows me down. Today I learned how to display links to other sites. I feel so accomplished!

Another problem that has plagued me is my own sense of order. I want one post to be followed in sequence by another and another in a logical flow. This would create a large body of information that tells my whole story. The problem with that is that it requires a lot more planning and time than I have to devote to it. Plus, it is contrary to the nature of blogging as I have discovered by reading many others.

From now on, it is my goal to write more often and allow each post to stand by itself. When I get the time and motivation, I will assemble all these little pearls from the blog and put them where they belong, in a web site or a book.

I appreciate all the comments that I have received. I will resist the temptation to answer each one and prove my point when there is disagreement. Why?, because I doubt my ability to convince someone of my opinion and it is contrary to the purpose of this blog. Rather, I will answer a few as the muse dictates and allow all the comments to guide me to points of interest for future posts. Also, don't tell anyone or I will deny it, the point of view of others does stimulate my mind to further learning. Shsssss.