Saturday, June 21, 2008
Previously Deleted from PV 27:17
Finally, you have begun to demonstrate your whole of emotional and relational inadequacy.2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"Please forget every image you may have of a patriarch for a few moments and envision instead, God. See Him as the righteous, gracious, loving, patient, creative and powerful person that He is. Now place that image over the name husband/father."One should not try to cover their failures by placing the image of God over them as husband/father. Rather, it is better to strive to be able to be in the image of Christ. One should be able to mirror, not hide behind the image of Christ."Our Lord has done this Himself, He has identified Himself at various times as both husband and father to Israel and to all believers in the N.T."God never super-imposed Himself over an abusive, selfish, and corrupt patriarch to cover their sins. Rather, he made His love an example of how we should be as husbands and father. To love our wives as Christ has loved the church and gave Himself for it. Your previous blogs have called women selfish for not wanting to share their husbands. But that statement is contrary to the heart of a Christ-like husband who should be willing to love his wife to the point that he would give himself for her.Please face up to the real issue at hand. You have developed feelings for another woman, and she did not respond as you had hoped. You feel guilty for loving another. Now you are trying to justify your feelings by hiding behind the practice of polygamy of the OT.This isn't working for you. You are losing your family, your church, and you are devastating your wife.This does not sound like the kind of man who is a true patriarch, a loving husband, or an example of Christ. To DISCIPLE and Mr. X, and any others who may have sympathy for his cause - Do you know John personally? I do. I know him very well. (And I'm sure by now, he knows me.) I am witnessing first-hand the destruction he is setting forth on the church he at one time loved, I am seeing the devastation that he is bringing to his family. And I know ever-so-well his manipulative efforts demonstrated in his writings. And I will be here, John, to argue and discourage your cause.You have sinned against the Lord; and be sure your sin will find you out. Numbers 32:23. - PV 27:17
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9 comments:
Okay this comment is directed primarily to PV 27:17 But I also have a comment for disciple as well. First to PV 27:17 I have read your comments and yes they did contain some Biblical verses however I am really having a difficult time trying to understand how you are referencing them into your point. I understand that you have "an axe to grind" with John. To be fair I would like to give the reading audience the other side of your statement Yes I do know John maybe or, maybe not, as well as you think you do. I do know that John has struggled with this whole idea and yes you are correct it does cover much much more than polygyny. However you really do not have any idea as to how much more it covers, in that aspect I do and in that point yes I do know John better than you. To suggest or intimate that John does not care about his family or the church that he pastors is NOT TRUE !! That is something that I strongly disagree with. You are stating some halftruths which is really not much different than a lie. I am of the opinion that you are aware of this fact, but even if you aren't then perhaps you should do some good old fashioned soul searching?? I will do my best to keep this blog on it's "track". I really do not wish to discuss this here as it is not the proper place. As for your complaint about John monitoring your comments, John initially sent you a private email, therefore if you do have an axe to grind it should be done in private otherwise you are violating one of the Ten Commandments. Now for my response to disciple....I understand your statement that we are to obey GOD whenever GOD's directions are contrary to man's laws. Yes there are numerous examples for us regarding that issue, .....However some problems that I have with what you have said. #1..We are never given a commandment to practice polygyny, rather it is an apparent approval. Keep in mind that I agree that polygyny is acceptable with GOD. #2..Rahab...We do not have the story with all details. We do know that Rahab knew that GOD had given Israel the land, however we are not told how she knew. It is very possible that she received an angel with the news. But even if she did not, I hardly think that assisting the nation of Israel entering into the promised land compares to polygyny.
To Michael D.:
Thank you for your response to my comments.
I would like to repond to your response here.
To 1) It is true that there is no direct commandment to polygyny. We do, however, have the commandment to be fruitful and mutliply and further, if one will read Paul's letters carefully, I think one will see that marriage is "expected of" women. (I am hesitant to say marriage is "commanded"; I wish to consider that in some more depth.)
To 2) Rahab is an example of following God rather than following (i.e. obeying) whatever government happens to be in power at any given moment.
God bless you!
To PV 27:17:
It appears to me that you would judge a man's Godliness by how happy his family and those who know him are with him. I ask you to stop and think for a moment just what that means. Don't you see that you are then setting these people up as gods to whom a man must answer? That is breaking the very first of the Ten Commandments, isn't it?
Allow me to suggest that you and all of those who are opposed to John's teaching of Godly patriarchy and the Godliness of polygyny first listen PRAYERFULLY and HUMBLY to what he has to say. Search the Scriptures just as the Bereans did - with a heart open to instruction. Listen to what God says in His Word. You will find that John is teaching the truth.
So what if John loves more than one woman! Many have been the men of God who did that. Never, ever has any man been condemned by God for marrying more than one woman. Quite the contrary!
To Michael D.
AMEN MANY TIMES OVER!!!!!!!
For agruements sake, let's pretend that John is right. Polgamy is all good and right. If his wife of a 40yr monogynous relationship, does not agree with him and does not want to live in this life style, shouldn't she be allowed to make that decision for herself, without physical threats of "I WILL NOT allow you to leave me"?
John;
I feel for you in this time of trouble. I too went through a bunch of stuff. People I thought loved me turned. Once you step outside a box it is difficult for others to reach out beyond the walls that contain them.
I do not know you peronally but I have felt a connection and deep respect to your thoughts on my blog. One of the most important things that I teach is the right of choice. I think you should be free to choose that which you believe and act accordingly. SOmeone referenced your wife. I am quite certain your recent thoughts are quite troubling for her but ultimately she is free to make decisions too.
My #1 endured a lot of pain to stay with me, being unable to protect her from those feelings is my biggest regret in life. However, I had to do what I believed to be the right thing. Even if I had ultimately decided I made the WRONG decision I had to stay true to my principles and honor.
Ultimately, both of my wives agree that my belief in purpose and honest kind treatment for them both made our life possible. But make no mistakes about it--not a day goes by that I don't feel the pain for what I put my #1 through to get to this point.
There are tons of personal costs along my path. I hope as you have to reach deeply to pay for you own beliefs you find them as worthwile as I have.
best of Luck and hang in there.
Mr. X
I am John's son. And I am privy to information that you do not, and will not ever have.
I do not have an axe to grind with John. Were it not for family members who have agreed that my comments be made, no one would be hearing from me at all. Personally, I'm over it. Don't really care to hear about this from John ever again. I have been hearing of this for quite some time now. As a matter of fact, I've had knowledge of his feelings for another woman for over two years now. This is not new to me. But until the family asks me to stop, or until they begin to speak for themselves, I will not stop telling the truths that only we would know.
Please keep in mind that we are not going to be able to truly debate or communicate as I do not believe the Bible to be the authority of God. Therefore, I cannot disobey any of the Ten Commandments, as I do not subscribe to them. Scripture cannot be used against me, as I do not use it as my standard. However, I will expect that anyone who does adhere to the Bible as their authority, be prepared and capable of weilding the double edged sword, in all it power. Or, at least reference the text, as I will.
michael d stated that I received a private e-mail from John, however, this is not completely accurate. The only "private" e-mail I received was a response to an message I sent him. I said that we needed to talk, he returned with a note stating that he was busy, and that he assumed I meant that I talk and he listened. I could come talk to him while he worked on his house. That's it. Definately not appropriate communication in light of the bomb-shell he was dropping on his family. This can be verified as all communications with John have been made public to my immediate family and those whom he included on his e-mails.
Disciple said... "It appears to me that you would judge a man's Godliness by how happy his family and those who know him are with him. I ask you to stop and think for a moment just what that means. Don't you see that you are then setting these people up as gods to whom a man must answer? That is breaking the very first of the Ten Commandments, isn't it?"
According to God, we are gods, the only thing that separates us from being Gods, is that we can't live forever. I know the difference between good and evil. We each have our own idea of good and evil. I should be allowed speak to mine with my comments, being afforded the same freedom as everyone else is, even if I don't agree, or if I have insight that is not shared by all.
Genesis 3
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
The devil did not lie, and was never accused of it. Instead, he was cursed for telling Eve a truth God did not want either of them to know.
pv27:17 - "There is a way which seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Prov. 14:12)
You do not subscribe to the Bible as God's Word; nonetheless, you use the text authoritatively. Quoting from Genesis you maintain that we do assuredly know good from evil and can judge for ourselves what is good and evil, even if this judgement differs from person to person.
Have you really thought this through? If each person has the same authority to decide what is right and what is wrong, then who are you to want to correct your father - or anyone else for that matter? And on what basis will you rebuke them? On the basis of YOUR judgement? Who are you?
Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead. A voice came from heaven at His baptism witnessing to His position. He did many miracles to bear testimony to His authority. All these things were witnessed and born witness to.
God spoke to the people of Israel from Mt. Sinai - everyone heard His voice, as He announced the Ten Commandments. He worked many miracles in the sight of the people. He proved that He was a power to be reckoned with; He proved that He should be listened to.
You say that Satan did not lie but rather told the truth. He said that Adam and Eve would not die if they ate the forbidden fruit; however, they did die. How can you say that he did not lie? You quote from Genesis. Have you not considered Jesus' statement that Satan is a liar and the father of all lies? (John 8:44) Or do you in your exceedingly great wisdom dismiss that as irrelevant?
You have chosen pv27:17 as your handle. Have you considered Prov. 3:5? There we are told "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding." Life is far too short and the consequences of false judgements far too great for us to so blithely brush aside the Word of God in favor of our "own understanding" and demand that others listen to and take seriously our "opining".
Consider also Prov. 1:7 where it is written that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
Thank you. As written in Genesis, the serpent did lie when he said they would not die. But he did state the truth regarding the knowledge of good and evil. I think of the time that Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, and am recalling that as the temptor, (whether Satan or human)the power comes from mixing the truth with the lie. As I consider yours, and others interpretations and judgements utilizing the Bible, I see both truths, and lies. And you would look from your side at my judgement and consider mine to be the same.
I use scripture only because I have made previous agreements with John that I would support my stances on any subject with scripture as I discuss or argue with him. Much like I would use quotes from a DC Comic book to discuss or debate the origin of Superman.
Belief in, and referencing of any written document are completely different things. Therefore, to use the Bible against me, someone who doesn't belive it, is really only self-serving for the one quoting. So, for me to use reason and logic with people who only recognize the Bible as their autority would only be the same from me. Since I can use the Bible with authority, I will. I'll wait to hear back from someone with reason and logic.
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